Why We Need a Draft: A Marine's Lament »
Posted by: TechnologyExpert 11 months, 3 weeks ago265 Comments Report this Story
He was in the firefights of Fallujah. He saw gaps in America's arsenal that he believes can only be filled when America's elite puts its sons on the battlefield. A plea for selective service.
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TechnologyExpert11 months, 3 weeks ago
I like this comment from the story:
"Because until the wealthy have that vested interest, until it's the sons of senators and the wealthy upper classes sitting in those trucks - fit takes more than the McCain boy or the son of Sen. Jim Webb - the best gear won't get paid for on an infantryman's timetable."
Let's face it, how many of the elite have their sons / daughters over there? Almost none.
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el-jefe11 months, 3 weeks ago
Depends on your definition of elite. The House and Senate have a higher percentage of their sons and daughters serving than does the general public.
The notion that our leaders are sending our troops into battle with inadequate equipment because of a disdain for the American fighting man is just specious. The root cause of that are some strategic decisions made by Bush and Rumsfeld to fight the war on the cheap. They're still executing the failed battle plan that had the Iraqis strewing flowers in the paths of the American liberators, electing Chalabi the Thief as their first head of state, and forming a model democracy within a couple of years.
The war has not just "not impacted" the wealthy, it's pretty much "not impacted" every segment of society. And we've already spent ourselves deep into deficit already...if the war was fought the way the author wants to, the country would be in a recession.
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DoseASpinoza11 months, 3 weeks ago
"It became clear on that November Friday in Fallujah that America's greatest strength, economics, was not in play. A sad realization."
This is completely false. The Department of Homeland Security is paying for those MRAPs and the contractors who drive them. Contractors doing the same work as soldiers are paid 3-4x more than soldiers, and have little or no oversight. Don't think for one minute that is not coming from the same pool of tax dollars that pay for the military.
No, Cpl. Finelli, the sad truth is that in this war economics is very much in play and your comrades are right. They are cannon fodder over there, but they are not defending the elite, they are making them richer. The elite don't want peace, they want a continuous income stream and this quagmire is it. This war is a construct of lackeys for homeland security contractors.
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Blackacereturn11 months, 3 weeks ago
El let's not talk about Percentages whenever that word is used it is to lie! It's a smaller body than the general public any idiot should know that in percentages this would make it seem greater than. Truth is all the senate and house needs is to have 3 children in the war to make it seem as an outrageous number compared to the general public.
I don't recall the Harvard Professor that said this "Percentages the world's greatest lire."
It's what they use to talk about the disparity of the welfare roles and illegal using up our medical facilities.
If you have 30 million people on one side and 300 million on the other and 50% of the 30 million are receiving government benefits and 25% of the 300 million are doing the same the difference:
For the 30 million 15 million or 50% are receiving government benefits while for the 300 million you have 75 million receiving government benefits or the lesser percentage 30%. 75 million or 15million these are the hard numbers.
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GODIMMAD11 months, 3 weeks ago
Many comments for both of your two. First, GW get alot of crap as does Kerry for their service. Why, their rich parents paid off ppl. There goes the reason for the draft up-front. Btw, I already know that im going to negged alot!
"fit takes more than the McCain boy or the son of Sen. Jim Webb - the best gear won't get paid for on an infantryman's timetable"
Can we honest and find that both parties are prob close to the same? Neither parties are invested in winning!
"The root cause of that are some strategic decisions made by Bush and Rumsfeld to fight the war on the cheap"
Not that I dont agree but dont forget the rep congress did nothing and the dem congress did a little as long as they could get enough prok through. Dont forget that the congress is the purse!!
I still believe this is a war that we must finish no matter if it was wrong to go in! We need to quit paying politics with our soldiers lives, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!
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NoSpinDave11 months, 3 weeks ago
I am wealthy. I have family and friends who are in the military. My daughters boyfriend just returned from his second tour in Iraq.
This patently untrue assertion that only the sons and daughters of the poor serve in the military is insulting and deminishes the service of thousands of people.
I know it makes the left feel better to think this is true, but the assertion of this article is just intellictually dishonest.
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Blackacereturn11 months, 3 weeks ago
What get's me with the American people is that this president/administration is responsible for all this not Clinton or a DEM congress but these cut and runners. (i call them that because they are all leaving the jobs just as the bad news is about to hit that the added troops were meaningless). Is this the type of people we want running the country, the bush girls should be over there, if not fighting at the encouraging our boys. I bet chelsee clinton would have done that, but instead they are in Mexico getting drunk on the sidewalk.
If i never see another Republican corporate catering for president again it will be too soon.
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wallyone11 months, 3 weeks ago
that is because their sons and daughters are more important than yours..
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flyrod11 months, 3 weeks ago
Obviously, neither you nor the author know what a screwed up mess a draft would be and the "elite" would still avoid military service. I got an idea.....Lets just end this war. Then we won't need the draft..........
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el-jefe11 months, 3 weeks ago
I'd love to end it, too. Do you have any ideas on how to do that without causing an even bigger mess over there? (Iran gaining control of the Mahdi Army, Turkey invading Kurdistan, Al Anbar province becoming a Syrian client state, and a massive civil war engulfing the region)?
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GWHayduke11 months, 3 weeks ago
Yes, how about we spend a few trillion dollars and build a time machine.
What way we can go back to 2003 and overthrow Dumbyah and prevent this absolute travesty of a war.
Thats a more viable strategy than any current (or past) strategy that has been implemented by the short-sighted morons running this country.
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xpansion11 months, 3 weeks ago
'I'd love to end it, too. Do you have any ideas on how to do that without causing an even bigger mess over there? (Iran gaining control of the Mahdi Army, Turkey invading Kurdistan, Al Anbar province becoming a Syrian client state, and a massive civil war engulfing the region)?'
What's to say this won't still happen if we leave 10 years from now? 20? Even 50 or more? Do you really think we should continue on our present path? Its not like the Iraqi gov't is doing much to stabilize their own country. Its about time they are held responsible for their country's future. The funny thing is, even George Sr. was smart enough to realize that removing Saddam from power prematurely would only create the chaos we are now faced with. Too bad he didn't teach his son that lesson, as we are all the ones paying the price.
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tkyrchncs11 months, 3 weeks ago
How about we just stop pretending we even care who rules what in the Middle East, and withdraw. Whoever has the oil has to sell it and if we buy from the Saudis, we clearly have no qualms about whom we buy it from. Let the Middle Easterners sort themselves out without us, and without our money, and without our weapons.
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Blackacereturn11 months, 3 weeks ago
El all good points and points we should have thought of before shock and whatever the hell it was we were going to do to them.
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AntiNeoCon11 months, 3 weeks ago
The draft has always been about sending "their" kids off to war, never the elite. If they do go they get safe, cush jobs like USO or some other non-threatening job. However, if the administration wants to rule the whole friggin world, they will gobble up your kids and send them off to die..they don't care because their kids won't be there.
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DoseASpinoza11 months, 3 weeks ago
But considering we are the most heavily armed country in the world, I would support two years of compulsory military service for everyone like in Switzerland and Israel. NO exceptions. If nothing else that would take a lot of wind out of the argument that "if we don't fight them over there we will fight them here."
We are becoming like the Saudis, hiring everything out so they never learn to do anything themselves.
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inkyboy0711 months, 3 weeks ago
DoseASpinoza wrote I would support two years of compulsory military service for everyone like in Switzerland and Israel. NO exceptions.
Unfortunately there can never be a system without exceptions. The end result is that any system will have to have some exceptions and where there are exceptions some will learn to take advantage of the situation.
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ballbuster211 months, 3 weeks ago
D-A-S, you took the word's from my mouth. i too believe that EVERY abled body person in the united states should be trained and serve in the military for a minimum of two year's, should that time come to protect our home/country.
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Candida11 months, 3 weeks ago
nowsourcing,
The only good thing about the draft would be that it would mobilize more people against the war.
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Donnaich11 months, 3 weeks ago
It may not be long in the works...
I've noticed a DEFINATE uptick in Selective Service ads on the radio stations around here. Add to that the "War Czar"s comments, and it sounds like they're preparing us for something.
But I agree with Flyrod, the "elite" will find deferments and be lobbying politicians for cushy jobs. There's always something they're "better qualified" to do...
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Donnaich11 months, 3 weeks ago
Oh, I don't... the interests who want the draft play both sides of the political spectrum. As long as the war continues... after all, it was Johnson who escalated Vietnam. And Nixon who invaded Cambodia.
Both sides are bought. By those whose children will seek exemptions because "they're too valuable".
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DoseASpinoza11 months, 3 weeks ago
In this case the Dems are right. As soon as we institute a draft for this for-profit war, the "silent majority" will hit the streets. It was the draft to feed Vietnam that led to the protests that finally pressured Nixon to get out.
Most people who believed in this war at the outset have realized they were duped. (I opposed pushing beyond Afghanistan from the beginning.) That is why they are having so much trouble recruiting now. Recruitment will continue to dwindle until someone can stand up and explain exactly what America is getting out of this war.
Because the net result is negative in terms of loss of life and limb and sanity, petroleum prices, moral high ground and perhaps most important our world standing, fewer people will sign up.
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ballbuster211 months, 3 weeks ago
you are right, like running to canada, mexico, europe or any place mom and dad might be to send them to avoid the draft. nothing like moms and pops with cowardly kid's and big bucks!!!!
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BananaSlug11 months, 3 weeks ago
I went to UC Santa Cruz, a campus full of some of the richest, whitest kids in the UC system. The ARMY tried to send recruiters on campus and (no suprise) the students ran them out with protests. The ideal of a volunteer army is nice, just as most ideals are. The ones who volunteer are, more likely than not, kids who are lured in (at the start) with promises of college money, and as the war progresses, new ones are lured in by promises of a stronger identity and trade-school skills. How do the soldiers feel when drop-outs and felons are signed up to fight along side them? What, no one with a clean record and a HS diploma wants to sign up?
The rich are quite happy to spend our money on their war. They should be quite happy to send their kids to die in it, if it's what they believe in. I come from two military families, and firmly believe in walking the walk. If you're not willing to die for a cause that leads to war, do you really believe in it?
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djrevelky11 months, 3 weeks ago
"What, no one with a clean record and a HS diploma wants to sign up?"
Ah, and here the liberal rears its ugly head and says the troops are stupid again. You forgot to finish your statement with "but I support the troops" like every other liberal does after they attack the military's intelligence.
I would love for you to tell my boss that everyone in the military is stupid and has a criminal record. I'm sure the Major with 2 MA degrees would have some choice words for you.
Or you could tell my grandfather that and I'm sure the civil engineer who also happens to be a 1st lt. would beat some discipline into you, even if he is 70.
Or you could tell my roommate from college that he is stupid and has a criminal record. We all know that CPA's are stupid right? Or is he stupid because he's a Corporal in the Army Reserve?
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ZippySpincycle11 months, 3 weeks ago
Ah, the selective quote--what a lovely thing. Did you read the rest of the post at all? Where does he say "everyone in the military is stupid and has a criminal record"? The line you cite refers to the dilemma that recruiters face *now*, after the most-qualified volunteer pool has been drawn upon to the point of exhaustion.
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sydness11 months, 3 weeks ago
You've listed two officer's and a reservist. Not exactly a fair assessment of the general pool. And I think the point Slug was making is (1) kids with seemingly few options are lured into military service and (2) the criteria of those accepted into the Army have slipped as the need for more bodies has risen during this "war".
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DoseASpinoza11 months, 3 weeks ago
If the lower the drinking age to 18, the recruiters can stand outside of bars and frat parties sign them up when they're drunk.
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ETproductions11 months, 3 weeks ago
This young corporal has some great points.
Personally, I don't favor a draft, I favor a Compulsory National Service plan. Everyone who is able would have to serve their country for a specified period of time. Everyone fit for military service would have to go through basic training at a minimum.
There would be pay and educational benefits to those who choose the military path after basic. But service could also be satisfied by working in health care, infrastructure construction and repair, environmental cleanup, alternative energy research (for those qualified), education, natural disaster recovery, anything federal government program that requires a large commitment of manpower.
Because all go through basic, all could be quickly called up if there were ever a WWIII. And because all could be called up, the AMerican people would not be so easily led into a war of opportunity again.
And all would learn trades and the value of serving their country.
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geoffinak11 months, 3 weeks ago
If there is a world war 3, just step outside and watch the missles go off and count about 8 minutes for 75% of the nation lives within 75 miles of the ocean coast. 8 minutes is about how long it will take the sub launched ICBMs to hit the costal areas. The heartland has about 20 minutes.
There will be no land war like WW 2 do you really think we could outlast China and it's army.
No everybody better get this one right, come war, real war not some sand flea, it will be the end as we know it. Once their launched, there is no calling them back. Once everyone else sees someone has launched, bush will be under a Mountain with about 60 other famalies. When the EMP pulse hits, that's all that has to happen. Everything will stop.
Then will come the blast and heat and you will be vapor or wish you were in about 3 days, radiation sickness, the water radiated, the soil full of radiation and dust clouds that make it nuclear winter.
Sorry, that time is gone. Wake up
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DoseASpinoza11 months, 3 weeks ago
The sad thing is it won't take WWIII to destroy the country. The president is doing it and bragging about it:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07...
Folks, that means your First Amendment rights have just gone up in smoke.
It's frightening that Bin Laden is so much smarter than Bush. It's exactly what he said, they don't have to make a war here, just generate enough fear to make the country implode.
Well it's happening right in front of us. There's something inherently contradictory in a president thumping his pulpit about how we are making some other country free, but we have to give up our freedoms to do it.
What are we fighting for again?
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el-jefe11 months, 3 weeks ago
"Because all go through basic, all could be quickly called up if there were ever a WWIII."
geoffinak criticised this statement on the basis of WWIII being a full-scale nuclear exchange. I agree with him that in that eventuality, whether the military is voluntary or compulsory is largely moot. However, there would be some value in running everyone through national service in that eventuality, especially it that taught most people how to be self reliant, how to self organize, and how to work with a larger group in a time of crisis. There would be suvivors, and they'd be better off.
But the real reason for this post is to criticize the idea of quickly calling up a large force of former draftees in a crisis. Our military simply doesn't work that way any more. The cutting edge of military might transformed from professional armies in the 17th and 18th centuries to large conscript armies in the 19th and 20th centuries. It's now swung back.
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