Politics – FOX News host Brit Hume and his panel discussed alleged CIA obstruction of justice charges resulting from the illegal destruction of interrogation tapes. However, their discussion changed the focus from obstruction of justice to defending torture and the justfication for breaking the rule of law.
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For some Americans, upholding constitutional law and abiding by the rules of the Geneva Convention are easily overlooked.
Waving the flag of victory that American lives have been saved by using torture is a despicable precedent and false.
When evil means become justified for fear of terrorism, it is not courage or valour that inspires these breaches of human ethics; it is, in fact, only cowardice.
It is by standing by the laws of decencey that courage and valour are demonstrated. What makes our nation better, when we behave like the terrorists that we condemn?
Come on SC did you honestly expect that the official mouthpiece for the American Quisling Party to take any line other than the staunch defense of the actions of the administration?
Just wait until they get ramped up accusing al Qaeda of Butto's assassination! They will be full of the pseudo-righteous indignation that has come to typify their every news(sic)cast as they attempt to shift the blame away from the one individual that had the absolute most to gain from her death and play the fear card once again as they attempt to justify this faux war that is being fought against international terrorism by Bush!
Talking heads taking out their arses. I wouldn't expect anything else from Faux.
I think the bottom line with regard to torture is that it simply does not produce good intelligence. The person being tortured will saying anything to get the torture to stop. There are numerous studies to support this, as well as the real life catastrophes like Bush's Rape of Iraq, where intelligence obtained using torture gave us bad intel, plus with the likes of Cheney manipulating it further, plus with the likes of Judy Miller and the New York Times being as complicit as possible, and you see the results are devastating.
Hume also believes Watergate was all caused by a prostitution ring run by Democrats... what do you expect from newsmen who work for roger Ailes, the most bigotted newsman in the business for the longest!
"Talking heads taking out their arses."
Well, at least you admit that you folks are talking out of your arses. ;-) Especially that guy in the post above this one:
"Hume also believes Watergate was all caused by a prostitution ring run by Democrats."
JQP - that is exactly what I was thinking - they have already accused Al Qaeda of this. You are 100% correct.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7163754.stm
Even those silly Brits are reporting that they believe Al Queda was behind Bhutto's killing. Those silly Brits and the Pakistani govt seem to be in unison blaming Al Queda.
The left has often claimed that Bush is stupid and cannot think for himself, so it must be that when he does start saying that Al Queda was responsible in his self righteous way, that it probably will be because he heard it on the BBC newscast or some other right wing agency.
Folks, try getting a mix of your news from around the world (after all, you own an internet connection, or else you would not be here). You might just find that Fox is not the only news agency to disagree with CNN's take on major news stories.
Didn't these "newscasters" also say the fires in southern California were the work of al Qaeda?
Onto the torture. It is happening. I have spoken with a former Navy Medic that confirmed that torture is going on. I'm Ashamed to call Myself American with this going on. Bush and his band of thugs need to be tried for violation of the Geneva Convention immediately.
How in the world would a Navy medic know what the CIA is doing?
Because he was the one administering the drugs directly into the veins of these so called "enemy combatants." He has first hand knowledge of what went on down there. He said there is no question that it violates the Geneva Convention.
I think he was pulling your leg toph. Are you so naive that you would believe what he said was true? Are you that full f yourself that you think a soldier who was responsible for torture would speak openly about it to you?
Why is it so unbelievable? The administration has admitted the use of waterboarding.
You don't think it is a little far fetched that a "navy medic" would just confess to "torturing" people at gitmo to some random stranger?
Seriously Toph, Tingshisding is right here. I mean what you are saying is almost as absurd as thinking US soldiers would make Iraqi prisoners play naked twister, threaten to have dogs bite their balls off, put them on a leash and have a woman smoking a cig point at their genitals, or put a mask on their head and make them think if they let wires touch the floor they will be electrocuted. There is no way our soldiers would ever make photos of that public on the cover of TIME. How could you possibly think we would do that?
tanglang wouldn't that be the "christian" thing to do???
Whats that? Believe everything you are told? If thats what you meant then no, that is not the Christian thing to do.
No, tell the truth.
Soyou are saying that the guy is a Christian? Have you ever met the guy? For that matter, all people lie.
There is also a retired military officer, Major Jesse Marcel, who said a UFO crashed in Roswell and the US Government covered it up.
Your logic is that a soldier testified to participating in torture, so therefore it must be true.
You have convinced me to finally believe Marcel's story. Thank you. I have wondered about the legitimacy of his UFO claims for years, but now I know that they must have been true.
That's all I am trying to say. Thanks CM.
Spadecaller
I guess you guys haven't realized yet that the rules of the Geneva Convention do not apply to terrorist? All the stuff you spout is total bunk. Celebrating that American lives have been saved is a natural and normal thing to do and only an enemy to America would say otherwise. Let me see now, water boarding a terrorist to save American lives or not water boarding and let a terrorist plot kill thousands of Americans.
Hmmmm, now we know what Spadecaller would do, don't we. I call his concern fake patriotism.
-"Celebrating that American lives have been saved is a natural and normal thing to do and only an enemy to America would say otherwise."-
Any documentation indicating that waterboarding has resulted in saving American lives?
Look forward to that link.
Well the one guy we waterboarded rolled over on kalied sheik muhammed who was not only behind previous attacks but was planning more. I'd say that saved some lives.
"Well the one guy we waterboarded rolled over on kalied sheik muhammed..."
Says who? The same people that brought you the imminent threat of "mushroom clouds over New York City?" If it was so effective, why didn't he roll over on Bin Laden and his second in command?
American lives are NOT being saved by torture. Americans and American soldiers are being put at a high risk of being tortured, if captured, for decades. Even signatories of the Geneva Conventions now have an excuse to ignore the rules when dealing with Americans.
If you condone torture, you are no patriot of America, you are either an enemy of our troops, or an idiot.
Why would he need to roll over on them? We already know who they are and what they have done. How do you know that this guy even knew OBL? For all you know, he worked for kalied sheik muhammed and thats it.
As for our troops being put in harms way, that's what they sign up for. They know (at least all of the ones I know or have known) what the risks are. They also know (as do I) that if they are captured, they will not be waterboarded as it is not torture. They will be dismembered, disembowled, beheaded and so on. That's what was happeneing to them long beofre it ever came out that we waterboarded two terrorists. There are plenty of soldiers who feel that waterboarding is necessary. Are they enemies of the troops too?
"There are plenty of soldiers who feel that waterboarding is necessary."
Name one in a leadership position.
I'll find a 100, no a 1,000 soldiers that say different. Start with Colin Powell, go through the JCS and work your way down. Ask any soldier that has been trained in interrogation what it says in the US Army field manual. The military is adamantly against torture.
There will be future conflicts with nations and conventional armies. If we are known to torture captives, a future enemy will have full justification for torturing American POWs. That is ONE of the military's arguments against torturing captives. Another is that it doesn't work very well if you are after good intelligence. The last reason I will cite is because most of our military men and women still believe in honor.
Your argument is rediculous at best. You saying that you will go find 100 no 1000 soldiers who will agree with you. First of all buddy, you are talking out of your ass. I'll tell you what, you bring me sworn affidavits from 1000 soldiers backing you up, and I will not only come back here and admit that you are right, but I will leave propeller for good. Deal?
Oh, and our soldiers were being tortured, and really tortured (beheaded, dismembered, disembowled and such) long before it came out that we waterboarded these two guys so that argument does not hold water. Also, we are not waterboarding soldiers but terrorists. Huge difference.
I love the way you guys manipulate the stats. If somone was shot by an American he becomes an insurgent. If we torture him he must be a terrorist because if he was innocent we never would have tortured him. You have all of the intelligence of the Salem witch trials.
familiar ground [sometimes I feel like a busted phonograph on here] but that assumption of guilt is a scary concept. You can apply it to 'them', but think if it was applied to us:
'well he must have done something, or why would the police be questioning him?'
It's just odd to conclude that all the people the US picks up in these foreign lands are guilty.
Maybe it will give birth to a new saying, like 'arrested for driving while arab' or something
But anyway most people that argue in favor of 'aggressive interrogation' do the assumption of guilt thing, I've noticed
the senior leadership of our military is ALREADY ON RECORD as opposing torture. you and your kind are a disgrace, supporting torture. and you call yourself an american.... shame on you and those that convinced you it was EVER ok for americans to condone torture!
First you must believe that waterboarding is torture. Since I do not, I don't feel that I support the use of torture.
SHAME ON YOU!! i bet youd consider it torture if it were done to you, your parents, or your children.
you the Kool-Aid drinkers, the 28%ers, will you continue to ignore, excuse, justify and rationalize ANYTHING the Duh-cider does? is there NOTHING you will stand up for against these warmongering neocons who have stolen YOUR party and turned it into something Teddy Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln would be ashamed of?
by your logic, no one should ever be punished for breaking a law that they dont believe should be a law.
if a rapist doesnt believe rape is wrong, isnt it still a crime? if a steroid user doesnt believe its wrong, isnt he still cheating? if a doctor who performs abortions doesnt believe its wrong, isnt he still (in your eyes) taking a life?
not believing something is wrong, does NOT make it right. your statement is shameful proof that you will compromise your values to any extent to stand with Duh-bya.
SHAME ON YOU!
Another fine candidate for attorney general.
tanglang:
He is one of them. No to terrorism. That is what torture is. You know as a soldier I did not want to be captured because torture is inhumane and useless. If you don't believe it under go it and see what you will admit to just end the torture. At that point you are not even thinking about truth. You just want it to end.
Tanglang, you sir, are an idiot. The military establishment has long been PUBLICLY opposed to torture. That is a matter of public record that even a simpleton like you can research.
Secondly, stating that water boarding is not torture further demonstrates your lack of intelligence and your willingness to publicly show how stupid you are. The USA prosecuted Japanese officers for war crimes because they tortured POWs. They were found guilty. The torture method they used was water boarding. Look it up.
Let me water board you and then you tell us that it is not torture. I would love to see how long it takes a chickenhawk to squawk.
If you asked me 10 years ago I would have denied even having a debate about such a thing in this country would ever be necessary. The loonies are running the show now for certain.
oops that was sposed to be a NEG
I got your back....
Wolfie: "only an enemy to America would say otherwise"
If you hadn't accused me of being an enemy of my country and called my patriotism "fake", I would have dignified your question with an answer.
But you should no my rule by now, I don't dialogue more than once with any one who has not learned to communicate respectfully.
It seems hypocritical that someone who has been waging a private war against Christianity on these boards, someone who practices "guilt by association" regularly, and someone who poses as morally superior to everyone else here would so adamantly insist that others "respect" HIM and HIS views.
The rule I learned long ago is that respect was earned, and that it was granted reciprocally. But Spadecaller, evidently, makes his own rules.
Poor spadecaller, so victimized, so abused.
No, BoBo, Spadecaller is the bully, not the victim, but he doesn't have the moral certitude to back up his pious pose, so he avoids responding to those who would expose him. He is afraid, and like most bullies, he is a coward.
The site managers encourage those who attack Christians, as they have protected and encouraged RickyDawkins since this site's inception. I do not think that they would so protect a member who abused Jews or Muslims in this fashion. In fact, several of the paid personnel are among Spadecaller's biggest supporters.
Well Spadecaller, that's the price you pay for telling the truth. When the facts and logic are on your side you can expect others to reply with insults and disrespect.
There are enough facts to support either side of the issue.
We are not talking mathematics here. We are talking about opinions of an issue. When people use the word "logic" to support their own opinions, they are trying to steal the high ground from their oponent.
The facts are that some Americans believe waterboarding to be torture, and other Americans believe that it is not.
You can choose to agree with one side of the argument or the other, but that choice is not supported by logic. It is only supported by belief or conviction, but not logic.
It has been the opinion of the sane for centuries that torture inhumane and ineffective, and that those who use torture are evil. That's evidence enough for me. There should be no waffling on this issue. If you are a member of our government whether elected, appointed, hired, or in the military and you do not ACTIVELY CONDEMN torture you should be put out on your ear. Period. Americans have been willing since the beginning to die for our principles, and if some of us need to die for this one, so be it. Even if it is me or mine. Torture is NOTHING but evil.
"I guess you guys haven't realized yet that the rules of the Geneva Convention do not apply to terrorist?"
--The thing is, over the years America has been kinda selective when it comes to heeding the recommendations of the rest of the international community. Just consider the way we bullied and browbeat other countries into going along with us into the nightmare in the first place (can you say Freedom Fries?). We have no respect for the UN and Republicans are particularly hostile to the UN when it doesn't agree with our goals (which are usually designed to serve our interests more so than the international community as a whole, anyway).
Besides, how can we go around claiming to "spread democracy" when we behave no differently than terrorists do?
mesodude
Oh, we're spreading something around alright, but it sure isn't democracy.
"War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super Nationalistic Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.