Politics – Top Bush aides, including Vice President Cheney, micromanaged the torture of terrorist suspects from the White House basement, according to an ABC News report aired last night.
Ashcroft will be correct on this one. "History will not judge this kindly."
Ashcroft, neocon and statist-authoritarian though he may be, has had some notable moments of moral clarity during his tenure as AG. I will wager he is not totally irredeemable, and would also wager he at some point had the scales fall away from his eyes regarding the true nature of Bush's ersatz Christian fundamentalism. It might be interesting if a REAL tell-all book ever emerges from the man. Genuine fundamentalists do not like being played for fools by fake ones.
"At least one member of the club had some qualms. ABC reports that Ashcroft "was troubled by the discussions."
This is what is most troubling for me. All the rest thought it was alright to do this, even Colin Powell. The collective mob mentality is prevalent among the elite as it is with all segments of our population.
The other troubling info was that Bush was only treading water (no pun intended) and hopes to past on his sh*t pile to his successor. He has never completed anything he started and his endeavors has always turned to sh*t. Someone else will have to clean up his mess. And don't you right wing nuts ever forget that it's your's and Bush's pile of crap and hopefully you'll be held accountable.
"And don't you right wing nuts ever forget that it's your's and Bush's pile of crap and hopefully you'll be held accountable."
Every Republican should pay careful attention to your words. Do you support Obama or Ms. Clinton?
From one of your other posts, avoth:
"America is the loser. Sadly, there's no savior on the horizon. We have to go down the toilet and, as long as that's going to happen anyway, let history record that it was a Democrat that took us there."
You are delusional, son.
(and personally, I support the total eradication of the repuglican party)
"You are delusional, son."
No, I'm not and I'm not your son. So let's refrain from the personal attacks.
The unity of which Obama so eloquently speaks is well represented here by supporters of the Democrats. Your desire to fix blame for what you see as wrong, and hold people accountable (and I'd love to know how) represent that "unity".
Without true unity...without EVERYONE (and that includes you) putting aside our differences, America will lose. It will go down the toilet. And I'd much rather have one of you in charge when that happens.
"(and personally, I support the total eradication of the repuglican party)"
So just how are you going to eradicate us?
"And I'd much rather have one of you in charge when that happens."
Yeah, Cons want a Democrat in charge so they can scream, "You didn't pull the turd we put in the punchbowl out fast enough, it's ALL YOUR FAULT!!!"
Not at all. It's not a question of blame. It's the direction we're headed in. You haven't once seen me praise the Republicans. Have you?
Besides, how could we possibly scream "It's all your fault" when things are just going to be so wonderful when your leaders take charge? All the problems will be solved, and we'll be headed in the "right direction", won't we?
Be that as it may, you're part of the reason we'll go down the toilet. Let's assume Obama is the next President. How's he going to achieve the "unity" he claims he wants? By "totally eradicating the repuglican party"?
You can't help but force America down the toilet with attitudes like ProudBlueTexan. Because you're fighting your neighbors and your relatives.
I'll be long dead (part of the eradication) so it really won't matter to me personally. But, I have faith that eventually history will record the truth.
You're assuming that when we say "right wing nutjobs," we're talking about ALL conservative & ALL republicans.
Just FYI, the "nutjobs" referenced in these posts are the small, group of neocons in power with the support of less than 30% of the polled population.
I have conservative friends that are just as disgusted w/this cabal of cowardly idiots as my liberal friends.
So the eradication is of the ultra-conservative fanatic fringe that has hijacked the republican party & conservatism.
I'm reading Robert Byrd's book "Losing America...." In it, he discusses the way the Republicans & Democrats actually spoke with each other & did something known as COMPROMISE. He also says that this particular type of collaboration between the various parties pretty much ended w/the Newt Gingrich "Revolution."
THAT is the part of the party that needs eradication - the ideologues that work more for party than for country.
"You're assuming that when we say "right wing nutjobs," we're talking about ALL conservative & ALL republicans."
Read what Proudbluetexan wrote. It wasn't just "right wing nutjobs".
"the small, group of neocons in power"
Names, and what are you going to do with them?
"with the support of less than 30% of the polled population."
Excellent....you're going to rule by the polls.
"So the eradication is of the ultra-conservative fanatic fringe that has hijacked the republican party & conservatism."
Eradication or....extermination?....I love it. Yes, keep that up.
"THAT is the part of the party that needs eradication - the ideologues that work more for party than for country."
Yes, not like the part of the Democrat party that does exactly the same thing. You know that part, don't you? Or do they all work for the good of the country?
>>Names, and what are you going to do with them?
Simply, the vociferous, fanatic "Christian" Conservatives, the alleged "Moral Majority," & similar extremists.
>>Excellent....you're going to rule by the polls.
Isn't that what an election is?
>>Eradication or....extermination?
Don't be stupid. No one wants the extermination of Republicans.
>>part of the Democrat party that does exactly the same thing.
In case you haven't noticed, the mainstream of the Democratic party has turned more moderate. That's why we have the Ralph Naders, formerly of the Democratic Party, running as 3rd Party candidates.
Not a member? Sign-up today!
adamhowe1980
sterlingburt19681962
mekhifranks1975
2jojoyo
fyuuuuut
TemplarScribe
dokkyou08
shawnmartinez1960
soulkeeper009
nopatacious
harleyb761960
Dixie2008
keira.darin
Radiofreeeuropa
jefferybbales
Dan and Jennifer
Teech
sumptuousdigs
zephyr_ali
alamala
PoldieWhite
Maeve1480
JaniyaBla
harveyditak
ML2007
icono1
PhillipFoster
KatTimo
alltimetv
direstx
wonkydonkey
lawrencee
HobertPagan
blowback
Londi
pagey
newsarefree
jnbammer
Ciera Marie
bruhaha
aframerindio
onlyonesecret
vctoriasecret
baldieadelphe
Beeboppin71
hurr1
dissent
366)
The Unitary Executive is the Torture Master.
But of course.
IMPEACH!
Well, finally. The MSM at long last gets their pointy little teeth into some real truth about this so-called administration. Not bad fellas, now that there's LESS THAN A YEAR TO GO with the craven thugs of the Bush/Cheney junta. Way to stay on top of it. How long did ABC have this information?
I hate to say it, but don't get too excited. ABC News aired the story Wednesday, and the only subsequent story in the mainstream media I've seen is this one from Dan Froomkin. He's been pounding the Bush administration for years, and no one pays attention.
As far as Bush/Cheney are concerned....."So?"
Worse yet is the fact that your hard core, Christian fundamentalist, Neocon
Bush supporters are all for this. They advocate and condone it.
This was common knowledge prior to the 2004 election, and Americans STILL elected these draft dodgers.
And if there is an "event" prior to the 2008 election, Americans will do it again and elect McCain.
Fear makes people do strange things.
"'Highly placed sources said a handful of top advisers signed off on how the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects -- whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding....'"
You lemmings have an awfully odd definition of "torture."
Ask McCain what torture is. The man actually experienced it.
Interesting as well we have yet more "unnamed sources." I wish the media would stop being lazy and get real sources.
That's a heck of a picture of Cheney . Looks like he's squeezing out a turd .
BM I have to agree. LOL
'BM'?
He' s squeezing out a GB...a George Bush.
terrible. I don't care much for him either but really.
You do know that McCain *used to* speak out against waterboarding, right?
As for the unnamed sources, I'm guessing they'd be prosecuted--and certainly end their careers--if their names came out. And you can bet the names will if this report gets any more attention.
Libs,
Does beating a 22 year old taxi driver to death count as torture? If so then the case of the Afgan Dilawar counts as torture.
The link I posted below, you know the comment you negged, has a synopsis of Dilawar's case and others. Refute the allegation if you can, I'm all ears. If you can describe the treatment meted out by American hands to Dilawar and the others mentioned in that report as something other than torture, again I'm all ears.
Or simply reject that which conflicts with your view and move on, secure in the knowledge that "lemmings have an awfully odd definition of torture".
Well, we have asked McCain what torture is.
He agrees with us; disagrees with you and Bush.
Time Mag, Apr. 10, 2008:
"McCain has long argued that the Bush Administration overstepped its legal authority by approving techniques like waterboarding, and has successfully championed two efforts to try to limit the White House to the plain language of international treaties, which ban cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. McCain has also spoken in opposition to other techniques in the CIA arsenal like sleep deprivation and the use of stress positions, both of which were employed by the North Vietnamese during McCain's captivity as a prisoner of war and may still be employed by the CIA."
To be fair, Some are accusing him of watering down his disaproval during the current election.
Of course mccain disagrees with tourture. It's all the other things he stands for or against that are the real problems.
"I wish the media would stop being lazy and get real sources."
Well there is this .pdf floating around the web.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/0...
I would love to ask McInsane about torture.
He voted against torture by army, same McCain voted for CIA to be able to torture.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/13/mccain-wate...
libsrfunny - Us lemmings have a very clear idea what torture is. There is not much to argue about. Just look at the provisions in the Geneva Conventions of 1949, which our government (and our people) agreed to and signed on to.
It is Bush, his lawyers, his advisors, and conservatives like you, who are suddenly unclear what torture means. The WH has gone thru all sorts of legal contortions to re-define torture, justify torture by our agents, and to shield said agents from legal repercussions.
All the while chirping about democracy, Christian values, family values, and the evils of everyone else.
You are all whited sepulchres, full of moral decay and corruption. Seemingly holy and Christian in your speech, but full of evil in your thoughts and action. BEGONE, I say to you!
The US is also a signatory to the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Article 5 states:
"No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment." It makes no mention of whether or not a person is wearing a uniform or if they've been designated an 'enemy combatant'.
hilarious,
Obviously you don't want to understand. McCain has already condemned ANY torture because he understands what it means. Your refusal to acknowledge or mitigate that fact for personal political reasons (your sycophantic attitude in support of your party and its President) only proves how this nation is being held hostage by un-American ideals no true patriots would ever uphold.
America has always hated torture and defended anyone who had been tortured. We've sponsored international treaties to end torture.
Besides being an unreliable method to gain information, it is the most barbaric act known to man. It's akin to rape and pillage which is a tool of humiliation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture
http://books.google.com/books?id=-sa-nUI3HGMC&d...
"America has always hated torture and defended anyone who had been tortured"
Do tell.
Waterboarding had its beginnings in the U.S. invasion of the Philipines where it was often done unto death.
Thousands of Vietnamese civilians met death by slow torture thanks to the U.S. Army's "operation phoenix."
Torture is as American as apple pie.
natureboy,
Waterboarding had its origins in the Spanish Inquisition. (http://en...">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Hist...
Your correct to say that we used it in the Philippines; "Major Edwin Glenn was court martialed and sentenced to 10 years hard labor for waterboarding a suspected insurgent."
What, they didn't use the time tested Rack? They didn't even try to burn a few at the stake? No Hang-Draw-Quarter?
No that can't be REAL torture, so it must be OK.
So sayeth the LisRfunny idiot
the rack? hang draw quarter? you must be talking about osteopathic enhancement. that's not torture! we're doing 'em a favor!! ;)
libsRfunny-
Torture is having to endure 8 years of incompetence in the office of the president and VP.
libsRfunny,
Since you seem to be confused about what is torture and what isn't, why don't you do a few simple experiments. I don't recommend that you try waterboarding because I'm concerned even about your safety, but there are some safer things to try.
Immerse your arm or feet in a bucket of icewater and see how long you can take it. If the ice melts, just add some more. I'm sure you've reached into a cooler full of ice for a beer or two, so this should be easy.
Ask a few of your friends to take turns to keep you awake for, let's say, five days and nights. Let us know how you like it.
Find a box that you barely fit into. Crawl into it and stay there as long as you can. It should be child's play.
Of course, none of these will realistically simulate what the detainees go through because you will know that you can stop it any time you want to, but it's worth a try. It will clarify a few things for you.
if you're asking chuckles to empathize, forget it. that's one of those things about libs he thinks is a riot
Secretly briefed, Pelosi did not object to waterboarding in 2002
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Pelosi_did_not_ob...
Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar...
Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.
Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."
http://donoevil.propeller.com/story/2007/12/10/...
We rarely agree, but you are right. I've been amazed for the past six years, how few lawmakers protested against anything this administration did.
yes. pelosi is defintely on this lib's sh*t list for not doing anything about it.
and now I'd love to hear some con (maybe you?) say the same about the bush leadership when it comes to torture, since now we know for sure that they oversaw the process.
but it woulda been even better if pelosi never had to deal with the waterboarding issue in the first place. she didn't bring this to the table. so lets keep our eye on the ball as to who the real, bigger culprits are here.
the dems all signed off on it some even went as far as to question if the measures were forcible enough and that they feign ignorance is ridiculous........everyone in the senate and house knew what was going on and the senior leaders were given a virtual tour of the facilities..
yeah. got it. and this lib (me) is p.o'd about it and have written many letters about to many of my reps.
are you even p.o'd about the torture situation? if so, have you done the same to the bush admin?
you seem so eager to nail pelosi and the dems about this. why not the same eagerness directed at the bush admin since they started this whole terrible mess?
pc25,
So, 2 wrongs makes 1 right, huh.
It doesn't matter that most reps form both parties signed off on it; torture is wrong and those that excuse it are just as responsible. It doesn't excuse this nation's leadership that it promotes torture.
So, are you going to accept what this administration's doing, or are you going to excuse it?
What's new!